Greetings.
    If you are well, it is well.
    Here are the unofficial notes of the third spiritual traditions
gathering held at the Cafe Wim on the evening of Tuesday October 14, 
1997 from 7:30 pm to 9:30 pm. Thirteen people attended.
    This time I tried harder to write clearer, so I could read what
I wrote. Still, I didn't get it perfect, and I didn't get everything.
Yet, I hope this provides a fair idea of what happened.
                                                       All the Best,
                                                          Michael 

Topic: Spiritual Core of Religion

     The reason we chose this topic is that many religions today are
useless, of no purpose, nothing beyond the opium of the masses. At
one point in history a small group had a spiritual belief and this 
grew like a snowball going down a hill till at some point the snowball
overwhelmed this belief and one couldn't see the jewel in the centre.
     We should stop criticizing religion and see where it was meant 
to be.
     There is the big one the same as massive corporations and
tyrannical governments.
     There was the man Jesus who became the deity Jesus. Jesus never
said he was deity. His message was that we are all equal and we 
should all love each another and that we shouldn't throw away
Jewish law. Look at the Bible and the Talmud with the various sects
tearing each other to shreds.
     A lot of people give up on Christianity.
     Inside that tub of mud there is a baby.
     Politics. The messianic statement of Christianity is very
political, throw off the Roman yoke.
     Some religions are very spiritual. 
     Some from the beginning.
     If you give people something to believe in you control them.
     There must already be spirituality or people wouldn't go for
it.
     The factor of a charismatic leader.
     There is a difference between a minor split and a paradigm 
shift.
     Jesus became a paradigm shift. The Sanhedron turned him into 
a political figure. Nothing in the Gospels indicates Jesus was 
political. His problem was the two concepts of the Messiah, and he 
was neither. He was not prepared to fight Rome. He didn't have the
education and family position for the Jewish idea of the Messiah.
The Romans deified him be crucifixtion.
     It is possible to find a middle point.
     There needs to have been a spiritual concept originally..
     If we could find the gem in Christianity. We can almost see it.
How do we grasp it?
     There are those like Thomas Merton and Taillard de Chardin.
     It must have been possible for enlightenment there or it 
wouldn't have survived.
     Rhetoric was quite popular in the Roman Empire, as were the
kinds of spiritual discussions that we're having here. If the
early Christian preachers couldn't hold their own in debates their
religion wouldn't have endured.
     Religion is built on the underlying need everyone has for
spirituality. Someone has a mystical experience. This success 
prompts him to show others and a religion is built around that
mystical experience. It also fits the needs of the times.
     People interpret mystical experiences through the filters of
their world views.
     We small p modern pagans have more in common with the early
Christians than most modern Christians do.
     With Christianity, Judaism etc. there is decay.
     I know Christians incredibly spiritual.
     Christianity as practised can be very simple.
     As something becomes big it draws people who aren't committed.
     Even people are forced to participate.
     Either swallow this piece of toast or go up on the stake.
     Buddhism is the major religion of the East. People worship a
fat Buddha, a skinny Buddha, even the cat who saved the Emperor.
     Is Buddhism one religion or fifteen different religions?
     Is Christianity one religion or many different ones?
     When you take a spiritual belief, mystical experience and
filter it through the bias, the personality, it's not possible to
convey what it was you felt. You're restricted by personality and
limited by vocabulary. this leads to philosophical debates and
these become sects that people join as they join the Kiwanis Club.
     The spiritual aspects of Buddhis.
     Buddhism very fascinatingly kept spirituality.
     Buddhism has a much smaller snowball.
     You can see the different facets of the gem peaking out the
snowball.
     Change in culture. Time is irrelevant to spirituality. Yet,
take the example of being gay. In 1920 you'd roast in Hell forever.
Now you can be a clergyman.
     Three generations ago you wouldn't dare touch the host with
your hands. Now everyone does. 
     These are just rules of ritual, not spirituality.
     Ritual can be spiritual.
     Yes, it can, but it isn't always.
     The ritual in the churches is not highly spiritual.
     Well, there is the dedicated young priest who finds it very
spiritual to do his thing for his flock. But those who go... Some
are going to the house of God. Others are going for the sake of
the wife with the walkman stuck in the ear listening to the football
game.
     Like some pagan rituals where people come out to watch and get
scared or whatever and instead of the energy being up here it's down
here.
     Where does ritual lose the spiritual core?
     When ritual becomes something you do just because, or from habit.
     Where it's, "Damn, I have to wash my hands or God's going to
smite me."
     When it's not a metaphor for something deeper.
     Originally there was spirituality in Christian ritual, but now 
it's just a duty.
     You can't just do it from a robotic, habitual state of mind.
And now there's a social aspect to it. The spiritual descends into 
the social. It's a community thing, the lower aspects of the social.
People are there just to be there.
     The social becomes incorporated spirituality. 
     Sometimes a sense of community is engraved in what you're
trying to do spiritually. I want to get closer to my people as
part of my spirituality.
     Yes, and there's a big difference between being a good 
samaritan and doing a church bake sale as a social event.
     Heinlein's book JOB has a good passage where this guy asks,
"Do you think the fact that I'm a solid member of the church has 
any connection with me being the best cadilac dealer in town? If I 
choose to run for political office I can say that I'm a good church
member." This has nothing to do with spirituality.
     A lot of society just expects you to be a Christian, or a
church goer or religious.
     Someone will ask, "What faith are you?" You can say any small
religion you want, and that's okay, but if you say, "I'm an atheist,"
that's not so accepted.
     All US presidents go to church regularly.
     But if say I meditate on the Christ nature, or the Buddha
nature twice a day, will I be rejected as much as the atheist.
     It depends. Look at Mother Theresa.
     In today's increasingly cynical society someone so into
Christianity is regarded as a bit of a nut.
     We are expected in the West to worship consumerism.
     Anyone who spends more than an hour on Sunday on spirituality 
is a nut. They should be at the shopping centre.
     It comes from the Age of Reason. Yes, religion is fine, but to
believe so devoutly is going against science. Get with the times.
     It treads on people's sensibilities.
     The morals that have been passed down are out of date, they don't
apply any more.
     There is the law in Judaism, "What hurts you, don't do it to
others."
     Or the Wiccan Rede, "An that you harm none..."
     When do religions set down moral standpoints that can't shift?
     Pork in Judaism.
     This is the religious rather than the spiritual aspect.
     Cloven hoofed animals are unclean.
     Pork rots easily in the desert.
     Also, the cloven hoof will pick up bacteria and will be unclean.
     This doesn't apply today.
     What about doing the circle clockwise rather than counter-
clockwise.
     How do we get a proper chisel to chip away the unspiritual?
     What about Christianity and homosexuality?
     From the Taoist point of view if you do homosexuality, then
there's a different energy. Is this difference more dangerous? Is
it possible that this taboo in Christianity understands the energy
difference?
     What was the Jewish position on homosexuality?
     Judaism was down on homosexuality.
     There's the quote, "Don't spill your seed because you're
rendering it useless."
     From the Taoist point of view man loses energy when he 
ejaculates.
     A Qabalist recognizes the feminine aspect of God. So, there 
are two different stories in Judaism down the generations.
     It is the same in all religions.
     In Judaism there is one set of rules for the common man, and
one for the rabbi or qabalist.
     Is it understanding? Not everyone is at the same level of
understanding, there are different levels of understanding.
     You don't teach trigonometry in grade four.
     The Qabalists tended to be Talmudic scholars.
     When we twitch under dogmas of religion, maybe it's good to 
meditate on the dogmas and see if under the encrustation there's
truth, a pillar on the path.
     Ideals may be close to a basis for the spiritual core.
     How do we separate our preconceived notions to wipe the filth
off. 
     There is some possibility with Christianity, but for Judaism
the origin is so remote.
     All the Gospels are from the M scroll.
     Even with Judaism there is a spiritual core. We can look at 
the ideals, boil down past prejudices and biases.
     How do you escape your own biases?
     In Vietnam you can eat your neighbour's cat if it strays too
far from the neighbour's house, even if you are a cat owner. We'd 
think how can a cat owner eat a cat?
     People interested in finding the spiritual core are looking
for it through some kind of perspective.
     There was the Jesus seminar. Those working in the group came
from different sects so the biases could cancel out.
     You can run the four Gospels through a computer to get the 
common points. Jewish origins are more difficult. You have one book
with two stories in it. 
     Numbers has another one.
                                  
     What is the underlying spiritual core to Wicca. Wicca is a                  religion. 
     A lot of people follow it because.
     Because Christianity sucks.
     Because the Craft is so cool.
     Perhaps it's time to take this religion, pick it up polish it
and see what is the point.
     Let's do a chant.
     It can be a religion. So Gardner said.
     OK. What is the spiritual core of paganism?
     Paganism is too broad.
     I think Wicca is a generalization of paganism. Let's worship 
all the gods as one and all the goddesses as one.
     If it is a religion there must be a spiritual path underlying 
it.
     What were the spiritual pagans like?
     Why are there only two deities in Wicca?
     What truth draws people to it?
     As opposed to Jesus or Buddha. Wicca is like a concept of a
dualistic deity.
     Or the basic concept of one deity. People personify in various
deities to understand it. A cave man looks at the stars or the
antelope god or the grasses or the fish.
     The gods are the focal points for energy.
     Like a Catholic praying to St. Cecilia for musical inspiration. 
     It's the same as the goddess statue being prayed to by the
neolithic woman.
     To a shaman in an early tribal setting the concept of one  
deity may have been easy to grasp, but for Joe Farmer.    
     Wicca, paganism are from the inside rather than from the 
outside, from the Messiah etc.
     Very close to things in nature, less artificial.
     These concepts spring up naturally rather than from one leader.
     Are Wiccan rituals religious or spiritual?
     They can be either. I've been to both, often done by the same
people.
     Ideally they are spiritual. But in some cases it's been the 
time of year so we need a ritual, or we need a ritual this week.
     What's the difference?
     Luck.
     Inspiration..
     If it's a ritual purification everyone needs to be directing
energy to the same goals. You can't tell if someone next to you is
just splashing water on himself. You can't tell if he's had a bad
day.
     What is the end goal of paganism?
     Getting back in touch with nature. That's why it's so needed.
We need Wicca to regain the balance.
     In Buddhism the end goal is to achieve the Buddha stage.
     In Wicca the end goal is to achieve a wholly natural state.
     These are very similar.
     And in Christianity to become one with Christ.
     Can we look at most religions and find no longer rules and
repression but signposts?
     We should take it easy, slowly, check out the pemegranates.
     Is it possible that these rules are because they're saying 
that it's because they've been there, that it's been tested, that     
five hundred years ago someone ate a pomegranate and died?
     Is the Wiccan Rede a dogma?
     The paths of power, and paganism with its focus on magic is 
a path of power... 
     Paganism is a mystical religion. It answers within.
     By definition what you get from breaking the guidelines is
something that happens to the self.
     It is not a function of religion that makes Wicca mystical, 
but where it's now at.    
     I can imagine a future state where Wicca is just a dogma etc.
     The threefold law.
     Living in a closed system.
     Go ahead and piss in the pool, but you're still in the pool.
     If you smack him on the head, you are trusted less, you are
considered a violent person. It's not a question of a Captain Karma
or falling dominoes.
     There are consequences.
     Throw a rock into the pool and the ripples go out.
     If I help someone that person is more likely to help someone 
else etc. This helps to make it a world where people are more likely
to help others.
     When we do an act of kindness or violence or whatever it will
come back.
     The threefold law and a tooth for a tooth are nice explanations
for simple people. If he hits me I may hit him back six times.
     If I do bad things it doesn't necessarily hit me today. The
ripples don't instantly come back and get your socks wet.
     Since we are at one if we do something good this affects all.
     What about intent? I don't really care for him but I'll give
him ten dollars. What do I get out of it?
     Can't expect anyone to be purely altruistic.     
     I could put some money into a fund for my children's education
or into a fund for a new sports car.
     Put the kids through college and get them to get you the new
sports car.
     The new religion, Thelema.
     We've looked at Wicca with it's encrustations.
     I thought they were called barnacles.
     Thelema. The Aeons change. Spirits don't always follow suit.
Some people need lessons from past Aeons.
     Three Aeons: that of the Goddess, that of the dying God, and
now that of the Crowned Child, the Aeon of Horus, of Thelema.
     We had the goddess and the patriarchy turned sour.
     Is Wicca a half way point between?
     Is Wicca a throwback to the goddess?
     The concept of the god and goddess is not new.
     Judaism had a goddess and a god.
     In prehistoric times fertility was so important.
     The patriarchal age is about a man sacrificing his life.
     Now we are going back to matriarchy.
     We need a balance.
     It's like a spiral.
     Or a pendulum.
     When do we stop doing the pendulum thing?
     The pendulum eventually gets slower till it's a straight line.
     Balance.
     Is the pendulum itself a mistake?
     It's a spiral and we're ever so slowly going up.
     Almost everything in nature depends on masculine and feminine.
     In prehistoric times it wasn't just the goddess. There were
hunters and male gods.
     And hunters would pray to the goddess that the elks be fertile
so there'd be lots of elks to hunt.
     With Wicca I'm getting more into my maleness and my relations
with other men. Previously I had difficulty relating to men.
     Same with me and women. I'm not into talking about sales etc
for four hours.
     Or sports.
     I'm with men discussing what it really means to be men.
     From the Wiccan perspective there is the threefold Goddess.
What is the role of the man? What are the important points of a
man's life?
      Neptune is male.
      But Yemaya, an African sea goddess is female.
      The Classical period had gods and goddesses.
      Maybe it was a transition period like our period.
      Some people had lessons for thousands of years. Now it's 
time to find spirituality within the self.
      That's not a new concept.
      It was one of the greatest heresies of the Christian church.
And it was possibly only a few votes at a Council that decided it
would be a heresy.
      You had divinity within you.
      There have always been mystics.
      Maybe now with modern communications those of us who resonate
somewhat with this can now receive it.
      And the sheep can be taken care of by artificial means.
      The potential is always there.
      Individuals. We don't need six thousand years to learn about 
Isis and Horus.
      Is Wicca a more advanced form of religion
      But who is the Child?
      Us.
      Let the offspring be born in us.
Next meeting on Tuesday October 28th at Cafe Wim at 7:30 pm